tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6446461178381374626.post4348200155288064437..comments2024-03-27T23:28:19.341-07:00Comments on Telecanter's Receding Rules: The Pre-Mapped DungeonTelecanterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07238356788092725244noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6446461178381374626.post-9249944429136838732012-12-30T10:28:32.990-08:002012-12-30T10:28:32.990-08:00Thanks, Alfons. Yeah, sometimes with newer player...Thanks, Alfons. Yeah, sometimes with newer players I draw the dungeon out with dry erase marker on a paizo game may as we play. It slows me down a bit though. I wonder, did having the full maps before hand change how they strategized? Telecanterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07238356788092725244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6446461178381374626.post-14180094319901790552012-12-30T06:11:20.210-08:002012-12-30T06:11:20.210-08:00I did this a while back with the ToEE in my Greyha...I did this a while back with the ToEE in my Greyhawk campaign.<br /><br />Link with the actual player maps - http://mageofthestripedtower.blogspot.com/2011/12/temple-of-elemental-evil-level-1.html<br /><br />The main reason for the player maps was that no one in the party was willing/able/practiced enough to be able to do these in a timely manner. Since time seemed to be ever lacking actually taking the time out during gameplay to painstakingly map out the dungeon was put on the back burner. The rationale for giving the players these maps was that the forces of good came in and sacked the temple three years ago and these were the maps made after the fact. [A note to anyone actually planning on playing/running these modules the maps have been edited from the original TSR module maps.] The maps do not contain secret/concealed doors/rooms or many of the traps illustrated on the original maps. The conquering forces of good didn't discover all the hidden byways down in the temple. Its one thing not to make the players actually map because of time/willingness constraints it's quite another to totally give away everything on the map. They still have to explore and find out the many surprises of the temple the good old fashioned way. This was explained to the players ahead of time, so they weren't too surprised when they came across something not on the map given them.Al H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12851740892297960827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6446461178381374626.post-76402639269127291692012-01-03T10:17:19.420-08:002012-01-03T10:17:19.420-08:00Thanks, Tavis, I hadn't thought of that since ...Thanks, Tavis, I hadn't thought of that since I don't use a lot of gear. Do you find yourself designing the dungeons differently because of this?<br /><br />Does that mean a game using Dwarven Forge isn't about exploration? I love the look of those things (and if I had more room/money I'd probably own a bunch, or more likely be pouring my own like Paladin in Citadel), but for me exploration is the purest rush. I'd hate to lose it.Telecanterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07238356788092725244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6446461178381374626.post-69162707505059024632012-01-02T21:30:54.441-08:002012-01-02T21:30:54.441-08:00An important category of pre-made maps are ones th...An important category of pre-made maps are ones that are pushed in that direction by the medium. If you've got the dungeon laid out in Dwarven Forge Master Maze dioramas or drawn on a detailed large-scale battlemap or projected via a digital projector, the easiest thing is to show the players the whole thing at once; fog-of-war gradual reveals are more difficult. Sometimes I run with this tendency and justify doing the easy thing by giving the characters a perfect map: the players see the whole dungeon because both they and their PCs are looking at a depiction of it.<br />- TavisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6446461178381374626.post-90746933676485289962011-12-30T09:37:41.523-08:002011-12-30T09:37:41.523-08:00Thanks, all.
@John: I think I'm pretty much...Thanks, all. <br /><br />@John: I think I'm pretty much in agreement, just trying to explore that boundary between knowing and finding out with a map and a location.<br /><br />Thief is one game I missed out totally on and have heard so many good things about that I'm sorry for it. As I understand it it was a game about stealth? So that's interesting in that it makes it more heisty; you might know where every room is from a map but you really want to know where the guards are.<br /><br />@Richard: Teaching me as usual; never heard of the geniza documents. The idea that the writing is God's words and thus can't be destroyed but buried somewhere is an adventure all on its own! The scrollgrave, the librarycrypts. So many weird things in our real world why are adventure modules so samey?<br /><br />All the ideas for maps are good. You could probably make a blog post about each. Here's an idea for an OSR product: Book of Maps, every dungeon comes with a player map that is interesting in its own right or because of the backstory of its creation.<br /><br />@fictive: Reminds me a little of Assassin's Creed-- I'd go to all this trouble to find the maps of a location an assassination was to take place, where the guards were but the game would do something to make them all worthless. I'll never forgive the designers for putting the mentally handicapped beggar in one scene that bumps you and turns the stealth game instantly into a street brawl.Telecanterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07238356788092725244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6446461178381374626.post-20769343703693998242011-12-29T14:27:13.384-08:002011-12-29T14:27:13.384-08:00@fictive: Indeed. As a rule, the heists had much m...@fictive: Indeed. As a rule, the heists had much more detailed and accurate maps, while the levels spent wandering dungeons and dodging monsters had maps that were abstract or vague. The sequel dropped the dungeon exploration aspect of the game, so the maps became more detailed in general.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07090296806321882601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6446461178381374626.post-79277658912348766252011-12-29T13:36:35.513-08:002011-12-29T13:36:35.513-08:00I actually had a head full of "Thief" as...I actually had a head full of "Thief" as I read the post too. Consider the different qualities of the maps; the Lost City map was almost useless, and in Thief 2 they get some intensely detailed maps (and something changes when the map automatically tells you where you are; in the first game, you could make your own notes!)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6446461178381374626.post-56832294634683868742011-12-29T13:29:02.887-08:002011-12-29T13:29:02.887-08:00lots to chew on here. Maps by entities with comple...lots to chew on here. Maps by entities with completely different priorities (not necessarily Cthuluvian-different, although maps by aquatic or earth-dwelling creatures could be interesting, especially if the treasure hasn't been mined yet) - in the dragonriders' castle, be careful in the "stables:" in the trolls' caves steer clear of both the larder and the baths. Map-narrators who are inexplicably obsessed with what's growing on the walls, or the smells of different regions (rooms 10-16: metallic. 17: spring meadow. 18-20: hint of tannery. 21: madeleines). Maps transcribed by mediums, or doctors trying to interpret fever dreams. Maps that are self-evidently false - like they contain spatial loops or are narrated out of order so that they rhyme. <br /><br />Maps by Spike Milligan. "Kilburn High Road runs for three miles, which explains why it looks shagged out."<br /><br />Have I ranted at you about geniza documents? Each page torn in half and thrown into a massive oubliette, to further decay over centuries, yielding a jigsaw puzzle of fragmentary documents, often palimpsests with multiple authors, so you can never be totally sure if those 2 bits that seem to go together actually do for all the texts they contain...richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6446461178381374626.post-86600142681791098072011-12-29T11:46:04.048-08:002011-12-29T11:46:04.048-08:00In my experience, accurate maps make the dungeon l...In my experience, accurate maps make the dungeon less satisfying. As a player and a DM, I prefer any maps the party finds to be vague, incomplete, and enigmatic. The information on the map should be essentially correct, but with enough uncertainty and gaps of information that the players are forced to draw their own conclusions. That way you get the fun of poring over the map trying to figure stuff out, <i>and</i> the fun of exploration.<br /><br />My favourite would be the maps made by previous expeditions, filled with brief jottings and cryptic clues from some poor doomed saps just like the PCs. "Bert got et", "ware the watchers" and so on.<br /><br />One of the best examples I've seen of this is actually from a video game, <i>Thief</i>. Check out these dungeon maps, all for more-or-less traditional non-linear D&D-style dungeons: <a href="http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080107174744/thief/images/5/5b/TG_M4_map_page001.jpg" rel="nofollow">a crypt complex,</a> <a href="http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080703162346/thief/images/c/c5/TG_M9_map_PAGE001.jpg" rel="nofollow">a buried city,</a> <a href="http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080107175607/thief/images/f/f2/TG_M17_map_PAGE001.jpg" rel="nofollow">a cave complex,</a> and a <a href="http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080703162648/thief/images/d/dd/TG_M14_map_PAGE001.jpg" rel="nofollow">mythic underworld</a>.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07090296806321882601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6446461178381374626.post-82929000267717771772011-12-29T11:40:16.263-08:002011-12-29T11:40:16.263-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07090296806321882601noreply@blogger.com